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Natalia de Campos
Prof
6 March 2021 3:47pm

I loved meeting you all! Please see here the questions about the reading on Paulo Freire:

A – How do you think one can create dialogue across economic, political, social, and educational lines that divide society?

B – How does one inspire action? What inspires action in you?

C – Based on the reading too: How can interactive art not be manipulative?

D – In what ways that Freire describes, are YOU a project? What are the objectives and ends you think you are fighting for?

Natalia de Campos
Prof
10 March 2021 9:25am

I forgot to mention that in the reading there is a very incorrect translation on page 287: the meaning of the word “tijolo” is brick , not break, as it was translated! It makes a lot more sense in the approach of a common term that the construction workers used, and was very familiar to them. Also as used in the metaphor of “building blocks”.

tash kahn
Artist
10 March 2021 10:42am

Brilliant, I love that!

tash kahn
Artist
10 March 2021 10:21am

Thank you Natalia, it was lovely meeting you too and as someone who has not done a course for at least 20 years I really enjoyed doing this first assignment. Both the video and text were really interesting and inspiring and I got so much out of them. Hopefully my answers will concur.

Paulo Freire: Discussing Dialogue

A – How do you think one can create dialogue across economic, political, social, and educational lines that divide society?

This can be achieved by talking to each other respectfully as equals, not, as Paulo Freire says, with ‘narrating subjects and patient, listening objects’. Instead, both must take on the narrator and listener roles, being passive and active at each turn. Each must question and respond, sharing information, reflecting and discussing, hearing out each other’s views, challenging them (or not), and offering solutions. Narrating and listening in equal measure so both sides teach each other and are jointly responsible. This needs to be done via a series of interactions over a lengthy period, through meetings to talk through objectives, and as Freire recommends – using sketches, photographs, objects and sound to provoke discussion, pose problems and challenge people’s thinking. But ultimately by being kind.

B – How does one inspire action? What inspires action in you?

I think action can be inspired by lots of things, but interest, emotion and being inspirational come to mind. Obligation too. If you start by focusing on what someone is interested in, recognise their needs and then fulfil them, you have a foundation to build upon, and you can persuade people to participate in an action that gives them what they want. Using emotion can also inspire action. For example, an ugly building project in a local community could provoke the ‘not-in-my-backyard’ group to take a stand. Opposing something often galvanises communities into action – a joint approach with a joint goal. Charismatic people who inspire can also create action in others and they might use all of the above to encourage people to engage. I would also point to my answer to question A…

What inspires action in me? If I’m honest, sometimes I’m lazy as hell. Looking at art inspires me to make; inspiring conversations spur me into writing. Doing a project that I love inspires me. An emergency situation…

C – Based on the reading too: How can interactive art not be manipulative?

Interactive art needs to let people in – by that I mean that participants need to know what the artist is doing before they take part so they have all the information to hand. Then the potential collaborators can decide for themselves whether to participate or not as they are given a choice. As Finkelpearl states: ‘If one is to collaborate, it needs to be done with caution and respect.’ So they are more than just ‘material to be manipulated’. Non-artists must also be given the space to ask questions.

But I wonder if there is not always some level of manipulation involved? And does manipulation always have to be bad?

D – In what ways that Freire describes, are YOU a project? What are the objectives and ends you think you are fighting for?

I am a project insofar as I am able to form notions to put forward to others and open a discussion, however, I cannot know how others will react to these ideas and I cannot know which direction that original concept will go in. As an initiator or a participant in interactive art my physical actions become the project, ditto any dialogue that I enter into. But this process needs to be adaptable and I need to be ok with that. This brings to mind a murmuration of starlings – each bird plays their own individual part; together they are one large, fluid entity. 
As a project in life I am always trying to learn. I am continually trying to change and update age-old habits and ways that might not suit or offend others. I think communication is key, as is being mindful of others’ needs.

I found the last part of the question really difficult. What objectives AM I fighting for? From my sofa I am fighting for a free world with no racism and equality for women. For 365 days of International Women’s Day. I am fighting for the climate and for the people oppressed by their corrupt governments, their husbands. I am fighting for LGBTQ+ communities, free health care for all, homes and food for all. Death to the patriarchy. And for women and those who identify as women to be able to go for a walk at 3am without fear of being murdered or going missing. But I don’t think I truly answered your question in the right way?

Mierle Laderman Ukeles, Washing/Tracks/Maintenance: Outside

a. What aspects of the work presented in the video that called your attention the most?

The way things are viewed and how we perceive them. I love Mierle Laderman Ukeles’ work. The film touched on something that I have been thinking about a lot in my own practice – that is, the blurring of lines between art and everyday life. I saw parallels with my own work and with my own efforts in trying to negate the art object as a whole, and turning everyday acts and objects into art by simply renaming them. 
Ukeles’ roles as both an artist and a mother, and finding ways to combine the two also struck a chord with me. She was bound by her lifestyle, but found a way to use it as inspiration. In her work Washing/Tracks/Maintenance: Outside, Ukeles takes the act of domestic maintenance, puts it outside in full public view and labels it as art. I think this is great and when I first saw it, it blew my mind and completely changed the way I viewed my practice. She has taken something so mundane (something that most people don’t think twice about) and turned it on its head. This maintenance ‘work’ is something that everyone is capable of doing and many people do everyday, but by seeking to change our perceptions about labour, she has also changed our perceptions about art. I wonder how the sanitation worker on the opposite side of the street viewed it?

b. Explain question A (why, what resonated/ or didn’t/ what materials or techniques were used/ how did it engage or not the audience or collaborators, how did it impact the institution/ community/ others etc)

Everything about her work resonated with me. As a mother myself I know exactly where she is coming from. I am struck by her words: ‘Half of my week I was the mother, and the other half the artist. But, I thought to myself, “This is ridiculous, I am the one.”’ Like her, I know that there is never enough time to do all the work that needs to be done and however much space there is in my schedule there are never enough hours in the day to do everything I want to do. I am always thinking about the ‘other’ thing I need to do (and as I type this I am thinking that I need to remember to pay for my son’s violin lessons). As a result, I feel like I’m always on the back foot. That scene from the movie Fantasia with Mickey Mouse and the buckets springs to mind… So by that end, viewing my daily maintenance work as art changes everything and opens up many more doors.

The physical actions in the work Washing/Tracks/Maintenance: Outside – the scrubbing of a step, the careful laying out of the diapers, the act of pouring water down the steps and moving it around like a painter would paint – all play out in a series of rhythmic gestures that create one long dance. I am certain these actions caused viewers to stop and wonder. Indeed, this work raises many questions for me: Would those people who were aware it was art see it as that? Would they go on to see their own labour as art as a result? Would those who didn’t know it was art see it as maintenance? Does that matter? Is my own physical labour now art? I love that Ukeles is initiating these thoughts in people and hopefully causing them to think differently. At the same time, she is also putting the work of maintenance staff in the public sphere, highlighting their importance in the process. They are the workers who keep the cogs turning and are mostly taken for granted, but who, without them, our cities would grind to a halt. (And their importance has come to the fore in this pandemic.)

In terms of impact, the Wadsworth Atheneum Museum of Art knew it was opening itself up to criticism but was prepared to take a chance, unlike those institutions that had previously rejected her. Perhaps the idea that, ‘the exhibition area might look “empty” of art, but it will be maintained in full public view’ worried them. There is no art object to put on a wall or mount on a plinth – thus what is there to see and view passively? As artist in residence at the New York Sanitation Department Ukeles sought to have an impact on the wider community. However, when I saw her Touch Sanitation Performance I couldn’t help but think of Miwon Kwon’s words in the Paulo Freire text: ‘…Artists enter “communities” as outside experts to mediate between the daily lives of underprivileged social groups and Art…’ Or – some artists come in, use communities for their own ends then leave, having changed nothing. They have one more thing to add to their CV and the so-called collaborators go back to their daily lives.

Natalia de Campos
Prof
11 March 2021 5:17pm
Reply to  tash kahn

Feedback in audio!

tash kahn
Artist
13 March 2021 6:59am

Hi Natalia, thank you so much for this great feedback. Here are some thoughts…

Text

A: I think the answer to the lack of time lies in working the project into everyday life. I thought about doing something on my daily route to and from school. Stopping everyone I meet, engaging them in a conversation and seeing where it goes. Utilising these negative bits of space/dead time somehow. That way you don’t lose the dialogue as the dialogue comes with you. EDIT conversations or let them run if time allows. Listen and observe.

B: What is my ugly building? The lack of equality

C: I like the fact that people won’t always agree. It is important that people have their own views and are allowed the space to express them in a safe, respectful way. I also like the fact that we have no way of knowing which way the project/dialogue will go and that there is no set end point. Or maybe there is a loose goal but the journey is ever-changing.

D: How can others come in? I need to let them in and sometimes I find that find.

Video A: I watched a video of Marina Abramovic performing Balkan Baroque at Venice and wow, what a wonderful, harrowing, beautiful piece of work. So simple and truthful. Thank you for sharing. I think she is such a bloody great artist. I saw her piece Imponderabilia and I found it difficult and challenging. I chickened out and didn’t walk between the naked bodies. Something I regret now.

B: Lately I have been thinking about my own bodily movements as I go about the home, almost imagining an invisible pen making a line in space. Drawing my routes around the home. John talks about ‘artistic moments’ not usually categorised as art, and I find the thought of that rather beautiful – the swoosh of a foot through water as you get into the bath for instance; the route you take through the house to make coffee; the movement of our body as we put on clothes.

Did Catherine respond to this assignment? I couldn’t see to respond to her…

tash kahn
Artist
13 March 2021 8:22am
Reply to  tash kahn

Natalia: Can I ask, you asked me to think about my own ugly building – does this have to be something that annoys me or can it be something I feel strongly about in a good way?

Natalia de Campos
Prof
15 March 2021 9:12am
Reply to  tash kahn

Hi Tash — my reference to your example of the ugly building was not necessarily with a particularly positive or negative connotation. It was more referring about the trigger source– something that would make you want to move, from inside out, whether to change it for better or worse, it doesn’t matter- it would be to shift the focus not to the “thing” itself, but to what about that “thing” triggers in you. So, metaphorically, “it” could be an external object, but it could also be a beautiful action, or an action of injustice that you witness, an interaction with someone, and so on… As long as it moves you into action.

Last edited 3 years ago by Natalia de Campos
Natalia de Campos
Prof
15 March 2021 9:17am

Also – it took me a while to find references in the book with Abramovic’s image that I mentioned , my original book is lost…– the work I was referring to is “Cleaning the Mirror” (1995) – attached is a photo I had of the performance (from a photocopy of the book), and the dust cover of the book..

Last edited 3 years ago by Natalia de Campos
Natalia de Campos
Prof
15 March 2021 9:20am

Here

Abramovic_ Cleaning the MirrorJPG.JPG
Goldberg_ Performance Live Art since 1960.JPG
j o h n r o s
Prof
12 March 2021 4:39pm
Reply to  tash kahn

a few thoughts / responses for tash…

C – i wonder about this idea of making people privy to information before hand. i think i understand what you mean by this, but i struggle with it a bit. instructionals are good… they get people thinking and moving, but might these not also be seen as hierarchical and dominating in some way? what might a truly liberated exchange look like?

i imagine any level of manipulation is bad because it relates to power structures… is there another word or way of exchange that is more symbiotic? or at least challenges power in some true way?

D- i am imagining you on your sofa fighting for all of these causes… and in part i think, yes… you are!! we need breaks… we need to rejuvenate, re-calibrate and store up our energy. BUT this requires that we do the work when we are not on our sofas! 🙂

tash kahn
Artist
13 March 2021 4:31am
Reply to  j o h n r o s

Thanks JR. Re making people being privy to information, I don’t mean being instructional so much – more ‘this is what is happening, how do you feel about it?’. I think good conversation needs to be like a dance, stepping in to talk and stepping back to listen, and so on. That would be a truly liberated exchange in my view. I hate the idea of coming in and setting myself up in a position of power. Respect respect all the way. And co-operative harmony.

Ha ha. I wrote that when the UK news was at its worst and depressing as hell. Sometimes it gets too much and I let the what-is-the-point demons take control. Some research can definitely be done from the sofa, but there is always room for physical action 🙂

tash kahn
Artist
13 March 2021 6:42am
Reply to  j o h n r o s

Maybe I take my sofa out

j o h n r o s
Prof
13 March 2021 6:52am
Reply to  tash kahn

oh my goodness!! yes!! please take your sofa out and talk with the community. “Tash Talks” … so good!!! 🙂

tash kahn
Artist
13 March 2021 8:00am
Reply to  j o h n r o s

oh my oh my

tash kahn
Artist
13 March 2021 8:13am
Reply to  tash kahn

maybe I sit on a wall and invite people to sit with me. Just brainstorming now 🙂

j o h n r o s
Prof
10 March 2021 12:23pm

for the Ukeles video…

a / this idea of maintenance art is really important… process… process… process… i love thinking about this as critique but also just as being — connected to ourselves, our lives and each other.

b / maintenance is so important in life. i am more interested in artistic moments we that are not given the anointed categorization of “Art” … it resonates in it power to subvert — to be without permission — to exist because i does. i also love that others said “no” … and here we are. the institution is both a blessing and a curse.

tash kahn
Artist
13 March 2021 6:57am
Reply to  j o h n r o s

We all want to be part of the institution and yet, once in, are constricted by its bureaucracy. Others are told no and when they get famous everything changes: I watched as Marina Abramovic exhibited as a ‘nomad’ at the Venice Bienale as no country wanted to be associated with her work Balkan Baroque; then she wins and everyone wants her. Ugh

j o h n r o s
Prof
13 March 2021 7:27am
Reply to  tash kahn

i don’t know if i want to be a part of the institution… i just want to infiltrate from within!

tash kahn
Artist
13 March 2021 8:03am
Reply to  j o h n r o s

YES! freedom to move within their boundaries but without their constraints. Like a parasite?

tash kahn
Artist
13 March 2021 8:12am
Reply to  tash kahn

maybe a parasite is too nasty!

Natalia de Campos
Prof
19 March 2021 4:12pm
Reply to  j o h n r o s

“infiltrating from within” – an important concept for activating it.

j o h n r o s
Prof
10 March 2021 1:17pm

answers to reading /

a / be with people. go where people congregate. talk with community leaders. partner with community organizations. work with/in community. ASK community… LISTEN to community.
b / connectivity. relevance. seeing yourself in something. agency. purpose. i am inspired mostly by injustices i see. by deficits i see. by inaction. by apathy. by bureaucracy and by abuse of power.
c / being with people and listening to them.
d / i like this thought… i am a project. my practice has definitely become a performative project… and i am my practice. both action and reflection at the same time. conversation is a project. situation. here … as we gather and discuss… this is a project.

Natalia de Campos
Prof
11 March 2021 5:19pm
Reply to  j o h n r o s

One audio for both the video and the reading!

Last edited 3 years ago by Natalia de Campos
j o h n r o s
Prof
12 March 2021 4:28pm

thanks for the feedback natalia! i love receiving audio feedback!

here are some thoughts/responses

VIDEO
a / i love the thought of experimenting with an action. a recent action has had me placing crime stickers along my walks… this has been ok. i am intrigued about a more “maintenance-driven” idea… and will have a think. maybe a broom… sweeping my way from the studio to the home… and back again. yes… a broom. i am not sure i would want connect with others immediately. perhaps just let it be what it is, allowing for an action of thought on the other end. maybe over time, i could stop and talk about it. perhaps more proper if it became more of an every day event. now that i think about it… i can’t to the broom thing… (from another artist i don’t want to mimic)… but i will think along these lines.

b / yes… i am institutionally critical of all institutions… political, social, educational, religious, healthcare, military, police, etc… very important to remember these ideas… institutional critique can also talk in the echo chambers… important in the art world, but not always effective. 

READING
a / so when i say be with community and talk with them… listen to them… i do not discriminate here. i am including the more violent and racist/homophobic folks when i say this. these interactions are harder, but they still must come from love. they still must attempt to illicit discussion and response. though i do not look for this more-violent action regularly… i attempt to always be at the ready. not so long ago, when with my brother and his family… i had an anti-trans altercation. i listened… but this time got mostly angry and offensive. i need to find more peace in these interactions… these altercations. i need to be more patient. this is not hard.

d / i like your thoughts about how does “john” achieve these (outside of studioELL) … but see, studioELL is john and john is studioELL… i have all of these extensions of myself. projects play different roles. and i have realized recently that if studioELL is an outward facing project with large amounts of engagement … both in the online studio and in ways we have collaborated with the public in the past physically … might then certain other aspects of my practice be allowed to hover more in a space that paulo and tom discuss… the artist in the studio with no dialogical process, yet discussing… pushing… being… with engagement happening in solace at a later time?

IMG_8459.JPG
tash kahn
Artist
13 March 2021 6:57am
Reply to  j o h n r o s

When Natalia was talking about the Proud Boys it made me think of Daryl Davis – a black musician who befriended KKK members with a view to changing their views: https://www.theguardian.com/music/2020/mar/18/daryl-davis-black-musician-who-converts-ku-klux-klan-members

tash kahn
Artist
13 March 2021 7:02am
Reply to  tash kahn

I like the broom idea, shame it’s been done. Carrying a bucket of water, slop slopping and stopping to wash things as you go. Can I ask why you don’t want to talk to people yet? It’s quite scary I agree, but I am intrigued as to your reasons…

j o h n r o s
Prof
13 March 2021 7:30am
Reply to  tash kahn

not so much because its scary or uncomfortable. more because of the power of non-verbal communication. in my own work i seek the meditative … and in part, i ask the viewer to do the same … contemplate the known and unknown. attempt comfort in the uncomfortable or unknown. i want to trust the work. trust the viewer. and have faith in the process.

tash kahn
Artist
13 March 2021 8:11am
Reply to  j o h n r o s

oh I like that a lot. your visual art is very meditative and it always gives me a sense of calm. Using non-verbal to get your message across is a lovely idea and will (hopefully) raise lots of questions for both you and the audience.

Natalia de Campos
Prof
15 March 2021 9:24am
Reply to  j o h n r o s

I love the stickers – curious about what the chosen action will be – and if you can document it somehow (or ask someone to do it: if a stranger , he/she could send you the image and/or tag you?

even if you don’t like or use social media, but the person tags you, Tash , Catherine and I could look for it? perhaps with a # ?

j o h n r o s
Prof
19 March 2021 6:29pm

will have to think about this… i am very ANTI-product/anti-document right now (in the way that it might document a personal interaction. i want the memories to be the leave-behind…
but again… have to think about this more.
no social media… sorry. i do have #johnros out there… but ugg… 🙂

Natalia de Campos
Prof
19 March 2021 4:35pm
Reply to  j o h n r o s

just one comment — yes, to finding different ways to dialogue with different groups, and violent ones too, and also to the solace of John’s practice. But for both examples I meant more specifically for this idea of a project of social engagement, and how would you challenge yourself a little more outside a comfort zone?
As beings we need to find a way to talk to the different groups. Sometimes it is uncomfortable, and you go ahead, or not, and up until a certain point.

But when you have a project to realize, many times it can become a puzzle to put yourself in an uncomfortable situation like that — and still put all the pieces together without being disengaging. yet, the social engagement must still happen in some level.
I am peaceful person too, and we look for the ways of being more peaceful, more patient. This is not always possible. How do we deal with the difficult parts of a process and still realize the “project”?

j o h n r o s
Prof
19 March 2021 6:35pm

how would you challenge yourself a little more outside a comfort zone?

  • this already is outside of my comfort zone! haha! but really… going up to people and initiating a conversation… with no parameters or expectations of outcome. it seems really important to make a spiritual or emotional connection right now. again, not sure how this would all hash out… but its where my mind is right now.

yes… there is always uncertainty or unknowns and/or hiccups with any project. i suppose you can try to plan for being spontaneous and come up with strategies to sync or flow with others. i am not necessarily look for just peace or meditation. that might be good energy to put out there, but i also want to talk to others to see where they are. what makes them tick. yes… this will likely get colorful. and be difficult. ways to deal? being human? being vulnerable? showing others your own vulnerability? open to thoughts and ideas here…

Natalia de Campos
Prof
11 March 2021 5:23pm

For Catherine, some recorded feedback on your introduction images, attached here.

To everyone: please look at each others’ responses and audio feedback, and let us know if you have any further comments, or any other thoughts about Session 01 materials come to mind.

>>>>On Saturday, there will be an audio introduction to the Session 02 materials. Look for it at the top of Session 02 please. <<<<<

Have a good Friday!

Catherine Harrington
Artist
13 March 2021 5:09am

hi Natalia – generous of you to send this message – thank you! I did not see that we had an assignment of responding to reading and video – but I will stay on top of this in the future. I work full time Mon-Wed at the moment. I am going to put responses to queries here, but realise that they are our of synch with the deadline.

Catherine Harrington
Artist
14 March 2021 6:11am

Thanks Natalia for your generosity for sending comments. Apologies all for not contributing within the time frame.The assignment of last week somehow passed me by, last week had many deadlines, but still.

Natalia de Campos
Prof
15 March 2021 9:26am

Not a problem at all! I am glad you had a chance to read , as we discussed on email — will extend the deadlines to give you a schedule breather — see NOTES for all on the top comments for session 02, please

Last edited 3 years ago by Natalia de Campos